BUDAPEST, Hungary — In a postmodern Western society that tends to relegate the Church to the catacombs, as in the early centuries of Christianity, the first weapon of resistance is individually cultivated moral excellence. Indeed, for former Australian prime minister Tony Abbott, the virtues of fortitude, conviction and courage are the real antidotes to a zeitgeist that is decidedly unfavorable to the Christian faith and culture. 

Abbott spoke with the Register on the sidelines of a Sept. 18 conference held by the Danube Institute in Budapest on the theme “Whose New World Order?” In this interview, Abbott discusses the political and cultural situation of the Western world, which he considers to be facing challenges unprecedented in almost 80 years. 

Having never made a secret of his Catholic faith, the conservative politician who headed the Australian government from 2013 to 2015 was a seminarian in his youth, in the 1980s. He also cultivated a close friendship with Cardinal George Pell, the archbishop of Sydney between 2001 and 2014, who was jailed for over a year on sexual-abuse charges that were subsequently disproven, and who Abbott consequently views as a “modern-day martyr.”  

 

The coming months will be marked by important elections, with the American presidential elections in November and then in your own country in 2025. We recently had European Parliament elections, followed by those in England, and France is also experiencing a serious political crisis. It would seem that the West in general is in the midst of a major change: While the left is divided by the woke movement, the right seems increasingly divided between those who believe in freedom as it was intended in the old classical liberal order and those who question the very idea of democracy, often being tempted by more authoritarian regimes. What is your view — is liberal democracy still desirable? 

While I’m obviously a conservative, I’m also a democrat. And as much as democracy can be incredibly frustrating, it is the best. Despite all its imperfections, it is the least imperfect system of government. The wisdom of everyone surpasses the wisdom of any one individual.  

I think the heart and soul of conservatism, at least in the Anglosphere, is the search for the most perfect freedom. Now, there’s a world of difference between freedom and license, but, nevertheless, the political history of England is the gradual advance of freedom. Lord Alfred Tennyson once said of England that it is “A land of just and old renown, Where Freedom broadens slowly down; From precedent to precedent.” 

And I think that is a beautiful, poetic encapsulation of the importance of freedom and the necessity of order, because without order, there can be no freedom.  

 

What do you think is really the greatest political challenge facing the West right now?  

First and foremost, I hope all the upcoming elections are a defeat for the “woke mind virus.” But, unfortunately, the last elections in Australia, in the U.K. and in the U.S. were wins for people who are more susceptible, as opposed to less susceptible, to this woke mind virus. Unfortunately, even in these countries, the woke mind virus, the long march of the left through the institutions, has had its impact even on conservative political parties.  

This is one of the great internal challenges. Now, if I was an Israeli at the moment, the biggest challenge would obviously be the existential threat from Islamism. If I was Ukrainian at the moment, the biggest challenge would be obviously the existential threat from Putin and some sort of Russian militarism. If I’m a Taiwanese, the biggest challenge is Beijing’s desire to crush my freedom.  

But in the countries that are less subject to an existential threat, the biggest challenge obviously is this cultural self-doubt, of which the woke mind virus is the most obvious expression. 

I mean, from a Western, European point of view, some are spreading the idea that there is something fundamentally wrong, morally disgraceful about countries that are, in reality, the least racist, the most colorblind, the most free, the most fair, the most prosperous. These countries are now, inexplicably, in my judgment, but nevertheless deeply wracked, with self-doubt.  

 

You regularly visit Hungary to give lectures and participate in debates. The country seems to have become a kind of political laboratory for many Anglo-Saxon intellectuals and leaders, although Viktor Orbán is a very controversial figure in Western political circles. What makes Hungary so interesting for you?  

Our Western civilization is very fragile right now. I think that it faces serious external and internal challenges in a way that it hasn’t at any time before in the last 70 or 80 years. 

In Hungary, there’s been none of the uncontrolled migration, which I think has been so corrosive of the social cohesion in other countries. There’s been no embrace of the climate cult, which has been so destructive of the economic strength of many other countries. There’s been no ambivalence about the traditional family, which has, I think, been problematic for social cohesion. The Hungarians are encouraged to have more kids, inside stable families with mothers and fathers. And I think that makes this country both fascinating and instructive. 

Whatever you might think about a few controversial topics, such as the Hungarian position on Ukraine, Orbán has pursued policies that are explicitly designed to preserve Hungary as a nation-state. He has been robustly assertive when it comes to traditional Hungarian culture.  

Viktor Orbán has been culturally robust in resisting some of the serious internal challenges our civilization is currently facing. That makes him one of the most successful conservative leaders in recent times. 

He’s been able to win election after election for 14 years, and there’s no question of elections being rigged. Hungary is a full democracy. It’s got a free press, an independent judiciary, free and fair elections. The fact that Orbán keeps winning with the same robust conservative platform means that he’s obviously capable of persuading his own people. And that’s a huge contrast, for argument’s sake, with the recent conservative governments in Britain and Australia. 

 

We’re witnessing a rather interesting movement of young people returning to Catholicism in the West, often through traditionalist or charismatic movements. Some prominent figures are also turning to the Catholic Church right now. This is happening at the same time as the undeniable movement of de-Christianization in the West. Is it something you’re witnessing yourself? How do you explain such a paradox? 

I do observe it, and I welcome it, but I think it is risky to make too much of it. Yes, there are some incredibly faith-filled and impressive young people nowadays. And some of our churches are full and flourishing in a way that others are not. And that’s really good. But I wouldn’t go as far as saying we’re seeing a revival of faith in general, even if we might be seeing a revival of faith in some areas of the West. 

If you think, as I broadly do, that politics is downstream of culture and culture is downstream of religion, I would love to see a kind of Christian revival in the West. And I hope that there will be one, but I’m not sure we’re witnessing it yet, sadly.  

 

Then how would you describe this ongoing phenomenon?  

I observed to the late, great Cardinal Pell some years ago that we were, in a sense, back to the catacombs. I think he rather misinterpreted me as saying that we should go back to the catacombs. But, no, what I meant was that society actually wanted to drive us into the catacombs in a way. 

Now, I don’t advocate retreat. I advocate advance. But I think we have to acknowledge that the zeitgeist is against us — deeply, deeply against us. 

And that’s why what is needed at the moment, above all else, is character, conviction and courage. I don’t claim to be an exemplar of any of these things. Nevertheless, we all must do our best. 

 

Cardinal Pell was still in office when you started your own mandate as Australia’s prime minister. How well did you know him? How did you react when you heard the accusations of sexual abuse brought against him and that led to his incarceration? 

Cardinal Pell was a wonderful man and a great friend of mine. I knew him for a long time, and he was someone whose company I greatly enjoyed. And I never spent a moment in his company without feeling deeply uplifted and invigorated.  

Since I knew him well, I was utterly convinced that the things of which he was accused were completely foreign to his character. And when the circumstances that gave rise to the accusation became apparent, the whole thing was utterly improbable, to the point of being completely impossible. 

Even if one had thought he might have done it, which I never did, it just couldn’t have happened, as alleged. For me, the cardinal was a modern-day martyr. It was a kind of living crucifixion that he was subjected to. 

And he bore it with extraordinary stoicism, as one would expect from such a man of faith. But as a human being, I just thank God that he lived long enough to be completely exonerated by the legal system.  

 

Is there any Catholic figure who has been specifically inspiring to you in your personal journey?  

There are lots of wonderful people within the ranks of the clergy, and I like to dwell on those who have been part of my life. I have some very good friends who are priests, but Cardinal Pell was unique, and I’ve never met anyone like him. 

I also had a great friend at Oxford, a Jesuit scholastic named Father Paul Mankowski. Sadly, he is no longer with us. … There are too many good people in heaven at the moment!